Viviane Robinson and the Academy Leadership Excellence Framework

Transcript

Introduction:

You’re listening to the Victorian Academy of Teaching and Leadership podcast where we showcase conversations with some of the world’s biggest thought leaders in education. We also bring you the thoughts and reflections of teachers and school leaders from across Victoria.

Kendra Parker:

Welcome, everyone. My name is Kendra Parker, and I'm a principal in residence here at the Victorian Academy of Teaching and Leadership. We're joining you today from the Academy site in East Melbourne, which is on the lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation and acknowledge the many lands from which you may be listening.

Today's episode is aimed at educational leaders at all levels, principals, assistant principals, leadership teams, middle and aspiring leaders. My fellow principal in residence, Simone Eirth, joins me as we speak with distinguished professor emeritus, Viviane Robinson.

Viviane has dedicated her career to researching and developing the capabilities and dispositions that build excellence in educational leadership. Along the way, she's helped thousands of school leaders in New Zealand and Australia to positively impact the learning and wellbeing outcomes of their students. Today, we'll be discussing excellence in educational leadership as well as the Academy's recently released Leadership Excellence Framework, which we developed in consultation with Viviane, which has been a really exciting piece of work that Simone and I have had the privilege of working alongside Viviane SA.

Today, we'll look at how the framework is used to develop leadership through the academy as well as how it could be used by schools in the identification and development of potential leaders to support a sustainable pipeline of educational leaders. Thanks for joining us. Let's get started. Thanks for joining us today, Viviane. Simone and I are really excited to be here in person with you to have this conversation.

Viviane Robinson:

Thanks for asking me.

Kendra Parker:

A common line we use here at the Academy in the Leadership Excellence division is leadership matters. Viviane, why does leadership matter?

Viviane Robinson:

Well, parents have known, and indeed teachers have known for a long time, that leadership matters, but it's taken researchers a long time to actually catch up with public perception and folk wisdom. And it matters because we're now showing that the quality of leadership makes a difference to student outcomes. And the way it makes the difference is by creating conditions which enable teachers to do a better job with their students. And there's dozens of those sorts of conditions, and that's what educational leadership research that studies the relationship between leadership practices and student outcomes is actually focused on. Would you like me to say what some of those conditions are?

Kendra Parker:

I'd love to hear some of them. Thanks, Viviane.

Viviane Robinson:

Okay. Well, perhaps the first one and the most important is that leaders have to care about student outcomes. And by student outcomes, I'm being inclusive of academic and social emotional and well-being, they actually have to stay awake at night about the group of students that are not achieving. So that caring and then that leads test, of course, lead to, so that's the motivational part of it, and that has to lead to some skillful practices.

And those practices are good leaders, excellent leaders, very good at setting goals, collaboratively setting them and pursuing them with an intense focus and maintaining the focus on those goals. So there's goal setting. They're actually instructional leaders. They are sufficiently knowledgeable about teaching and learning to be able to know what it should look like, to care about what it does look like, and to try to work with teachers to close the gaps that they perceive.

They are passionate about professional learning for themselves and for their teachers. And they understand that all of this has to be built on a solid foundation of an orderly and safe school environment so that it is possible for teachers to teach and students to learn. And that is absolute fundamental for having the way leaders make a difference. They ensure that there is an academic learning focus culture in the school.

Kendra Parker:

Thanks, Viviane. That's a great response. And the very first thing you said, I think, is the most important. They've got to really care about students.

Viviane Robinson:

Yes.

Kendra Parker:

And I know in my nearly 11 years as a principal, I certainly always had students at the center of all my decision-making.

Viviane Robinson:

Yeah.

Kendra Parker:

And I did have some nights a week where I was worrying about some students. And, Simone, I'm sure you can relate to that as well.

Simone Eirth:

Oh, I can, Kendra, many nights lying awake thinking about how we're going to solve this problem and how we need to approach it, and how I need to show up actually, which is really important when we embark on that problem-solving process.

Kendra Parker:

Often, when we talk in schools about leaders, Simone, I'm going to ask you what you think about this, but you ask teachers about the school leadership, and they immediately just think of the principal and the assistant principal. And I'm sure many of us, our listeners will probably be thinking something similar. As a school principal, how do you define who the school leaders are or the leadership in your school?

Simone Eirth:

I can remember many times standing in front of the assembly, Kendra, and talking to all the kids and all the teachers and saying that we're all leaders here. And we can also show leadership in all different ways and the way that we are and the things that we do and say.

And when we're working with our staff, it's not always those people that have the badges on their shirts that are the leaders that are in those substantive positions. It's the people that have that outstanding practice that others look to, to guide and direct and to mentor. And it's really important as a principal to know who those people are in your school. And I think about Lyn Sharratt's work, and I think about the knowledgeable other, knowing who the knowledgeable others are in the school. And being able to make the most of their skill and their knowledge and how you go about sharing that expertise with the rest of the staff and really building that capacity across the school is really important, and that understanding that all teachers are leaders. They lead their classroom. They lead that learning culture there, and they're part of our learning culture as a school. So it's really important that we all see ourselves as leaders in that school context.

Kendra Parker:

So true. And Viviane, I'm sure you'll agree with what Simone's saying there about who the leaders are in our schools.

Viviane Robinson:

Yes. Well, I think what Simone's saying is that the opportunity to lead is available to everybody. And one of the challenges we have and indeed that principals have is to encourage people to take up that opportunity. And as I work with middle leaders, I love working with those middle leaders who have stood up and said, "I want to be a senior leader." And they join an aspiring principals program.

They're not afraid of being a tall poppy. They're not afraid of saying, "I actually want to lead a school as opposed to part of a school as a middle leader." I think we do. I agree, Simone, that every teacher's a leader in the sense that they lead their class. I think we have got a bit of work to do to encourage more teachers to want to lead adults.

Many teachers see that very differently. And in a way, it is and don't have the confidence or the dedication, and now there's an additional factor of they don't want the stress and the workload of leading other teachers. So we've got a bit of work to do in that space, I think.

Kendra Parker:

And I think we're going to talk a bit more about the Academy's Leadership Excellence Framework. And I think that's a great tool to start those discussions and to help build up leadership in our schools. So, Viviane, you started off talking about good leaders care about the outcomes and goal-setting, et cetera. And so we know that there is compelling evidence nowadays that leadership's important and has a direct causal link to student achievement and wellbeing. Can you talk to us about that?

Viviane Robinson:

Well, we've had a lot of research which shows a correlation between the quality of leadership, usually as rated by the teachers on surveys about leadership and student outcomes. And even when you control for all the confounding variables, it's really hard to establish that causal relationship.

But recently, social economists have come to the party and started testing the relationship between leadership and student outcome with a quite different methodology. Instead of relying on subjective perception of teachers of the quality of the leadership, they've studied the impact of principal turnover on student outcomes over time.

So it's a longitudinal study, and it's looking at trends and annual increments of student growth over three to five years. And there's some very good research on that now, showing that those strong relationships and causal relationships. Now, we have to be careful when we say it's a direct relationship because the principals don't teach the students. So it's indirect in the sense that the principals are setting the conditions through school organization and school culture that allow the teachers to do a better job.

Kendra Parker:

And I know moving up through the education profession from being a teacher to a leading teacher, I did a pretty standard progression, always talked about my moral purpose being about students, but understanding as I went into the principal role, my impact was more about creating that environment where students could learn and teachers could teach well. So that's a really good distinction. What is it about educational leadership that makes it so distinct in its purpose and how it manifests itself?

Viviane Robinson:

Yes. Well, I think it's distinctive, and I have written quite a lot about its distinctive purposes. But I need to acknowledge this is a somewhat contested space still. And if we just think back to take the example of self-managing schools introduced by an Australian, Brian Caldwell, in those days, I don't know whether Brian still believes this, but there was an ethos then that any good corporate leader, business leader could be a school leader, could be an educational leader. In other words, a notion of leadership as leadership. And if you're a good business leader, you well get in there, and you can lead a school.

And I think there were a few experiments where that was actually done. Now, I think that that is a mistake. And the reason it is a mistake is two reasons. First of all, the purpose of educational institutions is a distinctive purpose. There's no other institution in society which has as its purpose the preparation of young people, of children and young people to take their place, contribute to society, lead fulfilling lives, et cetera, and to do it in a way that develop autonomous self-regulated learners and socializes them into various ways of thinking and being culturally and in terms of socializing into certain disciplines as well.

So those purposes are distinctive. And then those distinctive purposes are associated with a distinctive knowledge base. And that's the science of learning and teaching. And I'm becoming more and more convinced of the importance of leaders having adequate knowledge base, having the opportunity to update and strengthen their understanding of that science. And I don't just mean the science of reading. I mean something much broader than that. So I am for having enlarged schools a partnership between business managers and the principal who is an educational leader, but I wouldn't be a supporter of let's bring in a corporate chief executive.

Simone Eirth:

I'm just wondering, Viviane, just going back to that conversation around the science of teaching and learning, how would you describe that? If you had to define that, what would it be?

Viviane Robinson:

Well, there is a whole lot more known now about how the brain works. And I'm talking about memory, what we know about working memory, what we know about long-term memory and what happens in working memory and long-term memory, and how it moves from one to the other.

We know about cognitive load theory. We know about attentional effects. We just have a whole lot more knowledge, and we also have some wonderful resources. And I'm not talking about snake oil, talking about the left and right brain. We have some wonderful resources from cognitive scientists who have taken that knowledge and brought it down to an extremely practical level about how it is used in classrooms, in some cases, illustrated by getting right down to activities, lesson plans, units of work, PowerPoints that create cognitive overload and don't, those sorts of things.

And there's two books that I always recommend. One is Ollie Lovell's Tools for Teachers, which has got a terrific chapter on just that. And the other is Dan Willingham's Why Students Don't Like School? And he's a United American cognitive psychologist, and his book is absolutely full of examples from different subject areas.

Simone Eirth:

Oh, they're two really good examples for us to go back to, Viviane. And I think that as a teacher and a learner, it's so important to really understand how a brain works. And there's so much more out there now for us to really understand that.

Viviane Robinson:

Yeah, there is. Yeah.

Kendra Parker:

I might move us on to talking about our Academy Leadership Excellence Framework, thinking about the knowledge and the teachers and leaders need to have in this area. Our framework was recently released online, Viviane. We're very excited, Simone and I, to have that go live last week for people to access with lots of resources, et cetera.

But for some people listening, they might not know much about our framework. So I might just give a quick overview of what it is and then come back to asking you some questions about it. But the framework really sets out the domains capabilities and the dispositions that describe what leaders need to know, and be, and do to fulfill their role. It talks about the domains of leading schools, and it's very much based on the Eight Principal Standard Domains, the Australian Institute of Teaching and School Leadership, which is around leading, teaching, learning, and well-being, developing self, others and teams, leading improvement, innovation and change, leading the management of the school and engaging and working with the community.

And excellent educational leaders have three capabilities that they enact across these areas. They use relevant knowledge such as what you were talking about just now, around teaching and learning, and the science of teaching and learning. And they use that knowledge to solve complex problems of teaching and learning. And of course, the hardest part of all of that is doing it while building and maintaining trust in your schools. And finally, it talks to some dispositions of excellent school leaders or some character traits, and it calls out open-mindedness, interpersonal courage, empathy and perseverance. So my first question, Viviane, to you is what is the value if someone says, "Well, what's the value of having a framework that outlines the knowledge, skills and dispositions for leadership excellence?"

Viviane Robinson:

Well, I think there is truckloads of books and resources around good leadership. And in many cases, there's a really unclear boundary between educational leadership and leadership in general. So what the framework does is it says, "This is what we think is important for excellence and most important of all why we think it's important."

And a good framework should do that. It should be very heavy on rationale so that people understand why some things have been included and other things haven't. So that's one answer. It defines the core knowledge base and skills that need to be developed by oneself, by peers, and by formal development organizations like the Academy.

The second reason is that I have worked with six or seven leadership academies mostly across Australia, some in the United Kingdom. And especially if the organizations are consultative, it is very easy to accumulate dozens of different programs because every group says, "Oh, yes, but we haven't got anything for team leaders, or we haven't got anything for rural schools or for leaders of rural schools, or we haven't got any."

And so if you don't have a sort of way of thinking about the leadership requirements that are across all educational leaders and how those are nuanced in different contexts and in different career stages, then you will just have a proliferation, and also being reactive. So you've got a particular lobby group that wants a course on this, and you've got a politician that wants a course there's a crisis about, well-being.

So come on, leadership institute develop some courses on. And so if you don't have a strong rationale and a strong framework, it's a curriculum. It's like any other curriculum, really, except this one's [inaudible 00:19:10]. It's a curriculum, and you know what happens with curriculum overload? Well, that's exactly what a framework is designed to prevent. So that's my second reason.

Kendra Parker:

And I love that concept of it being a curriculum. And as I said, Simone and I've been really excited to work with you on the framework and getting to really understand it deeply. And I know speaking of it being like a curriculum, we've talked over the last few months about whether there's a continuum of learning of leadership, et cetera. And I know that you've been quite adamant that it's not a continuum that we are constantly moving in and out all the time of using the capabilities and displaying the dispositions. It's just that probably what changes as we go from being a classroom leader to a school leader or a system leader is the types of problems that we're working with in solving.

Viviane Robinson:

Yes. They're more complex. They're wider in scope. There may be more of them.

Kendra Parker:

Yes. And you're dealing with more of them at the same time.

Viviane Robinson:

Yes.

Kendra Parker:

Very true. And we're constantly moving in and out of that.

Viviane Robinson:

Yes. There might be a few that are qualitatively different, certainly in comparison to a teacher leader, but the skills of complex problem solving, of inquiry as part of complex problem solving, of having to do that collaboratively with others in ways that build trust, of bringing relevant knowledge to bear or finding relevant knowledge, those are all applicable across the board.

Kendra Parker:

And even I think we've talked a lot as well about it's finding the knowledge or knowing that you don't have all the knowledge, but you know who to ask or where to go to get that knowledge.

Viviane Robinson:

Yeah. I've written some problem-solving examples based on aspects of maths. I don't know the first thing about teaching maths, but I do know about complex problem-solving. So I had to work with a math facilitator specialist, secondary math. I wouldn't be able to do it in primary either, probably. In fact, I wouldn't to develop that. So I knew enough that I needed to access some specialist expertise

Kendra Parker:

Yeah. As a principal in residence here at the academy, which is a really terrific role to have, I can really see how the framework is lifting our professional learning programs here and can see Simone's nodding at me and really adding that rigor and that consistency to developing leadership excellence across our system. And I really think it's giving us a great language to use, a common language to use around what leadership is. I'm wondering, Simone, I can really see lots of value in this too, if I was still in my school of how I might use it. What could you see about how the framework and the resources that we've got available might help those in schools with identifying and developing leadership at all levels?

Simone Eirth:

I just think that the framework actually offers a really good opportunity not only to reflect on your own leadership and the skills that you have and the dispositions that you need to enact in different situations, but also to help others to actually consider it as well. If you have a look at the self-reflection activity around the dispositions and the capabilities that we've developed, you can actually have a bit of a sense of where am I actually now, but where do I want to be and thinking about then what do I need to do to move to where I want to actually be?

And I think it just gives a great opportunity to begin that conversation as leaders and really gather that collective understanding of what leadership excellence looks like and when we're thinking about the work that we need to do in that school improvement, thinking about how we're going to activate that leadership excellence framework to actually do that work.

So it's part of what we do. And I think one of the other things is there are lots of times when you're in really, really difficult situations and just taking a moment to have a think about those dispositions and how you actually need to enter that space and engage with the people that you're working with to really work through the problems that you have at your feet is just so important and what makes it so important because it can have such a huge impact on the lives of the kids that we're working with. And so really understanding yourself as a leader in the way you go about doing things as well as helping others to understand where they're at and supporting them to grow is part of the work that you do in your role as a leader.

Kendra Parker:

Thanks. Yeah. And just also, I think the framework gives us that really objective way of looking at who are our next level leaders? Who's our next generation of leaders?

Simone Eirth:

Yes.

Kendra Parker:

How do we avoid any bias in who we think might be coming up and up and coming in our schools? And here's something to actually some criteria to look at.

Viviane Robinson:

Yeah. And I think too, that you're starting to work with the framework in terms of building the rigor of the evaluations that you're using. You're using it to evaluate the design and the content of programs. You're using it to evaluate the impact of programs on those skills and dispositions. That's a very big challenge that because you have to compare sort of a before and after, and there's all complexities in doing that.

But I think the academy has got some tools to build those and their performance evaluations into your programs, so that instead of just doing an activity, like discuss something or it's now reflect about your ability or your dispositions against these criteria, rigor, specified and doing that maybe at a beginning point and then at an end point in a course or even following up afterwards. So I think that's a big advantage too. And you mentioned the rigor, both of you, and also the shared language. We know what we mean when we talk about interpersonal courage. We know what we mean, and we have a concept of what trust requires. And that means you're more coherent and more aligned.

Kendra Parker:

Yeah. And the trust one for me is such a big one. Simone and I have talked about this a lot too, about, we talk about trust and what does trust look like. And we all say, "We have trust," but we never really define what does look like, feel like, sound like. And I love in our framework that we really call that out so that people can work towards building trust, which is really creating the environment where we're all working together and trust that we're all working for the same purpose.

Viviane Robinson:

Yeah.

Kendra Parker:

I just want to call out, Viviane, a question that we've been asked a few times when we've presented our framework is that the framework calls out four dispositions, interpersonal courage, empathy, perseverance, and open-mindedness. But we know as principals and school leaders, whatever role we're in, we're often calling on a number of different dispositions at any one time. What makes these four worthy of being in the framework?

Viviane Robinson:

Yes. Well, of course, when I wrote about those, I was very focused on what is the hardest part of a leader's work and how can we privilege the dispositions required to do the hardest part well? And the hardest part is leading improvement, and some of your data from the aspiring program, and I think, yeah, shows that as well as some other research and our rather fraught history of school reform, not just in this country, worldwide or English-speaking world anyway.

So that's the hardest part. So what are the dispositions that are particularly relevant to the work of leading improvement? And courage is in there because leading improvement is disruptive. You are saying that business as usual isn't good enough in terms of student outcomes. It should be a no-blame conversation, but you improve things that aren't working well enough. And if they are working well, then leave them alone.

Kendra Parker:

It's so true.

Viviane Robinson:

Okay. Leave them alone. One of the things I do a lot of is have systems reduce what they're asking school leaders to do by way of how many AIP goals or whatever or reform programs on the go. So courage is needed to say why business as usual isn't good enough in a non-blaming way and to recognize the challenge for teachers of disrupting the routines that they have in place about teaching maths or whatever that aren't working well enough.

And the amount of work that is involved for teachers in re-crafting those routines is huge. So the interpersonal courage is needed to disrupt and interrupt, and the empathy is needed in order to recognize what those teachers are going through and to understand from their point of view what change for the purpose of improvement is actually like how they experience it.

And if you don't, so courage and empathy need to go together, perseverance, because a whole lot of smart people before you have tried to solve that problem and haven't succeeded. So that should tell you that it's not easy, that it's hard work, and you don't shift from focusing on literacy to focusing on maths or vice versa just because you've done one for two years, and it's time for a change. So it's the perseverance, the determination is absolutely central to succeeding in that improvement work.

Kendra Parker:

Yeah.

Viviane Robinson:

Now, the open mindedness is, that's really important because leaders are so powerful, that your decisions about how to teach reading shape the lives and learning of hundreds and hundreds of children and a few less, but adults as well. So your quality of your thinking, of your ideas about how to solve these problems is so important in order to maximize the probability that you're going to get it right. And you can't do that unless you are open to having your favorite hunches and your favorite programs and your favorite initiatives questioned. And you should be questioning them yourself and encouraging others to question them because it's through that questioning and critique that you can check whether or not the way you're going to spend the money is the best decision.

Simone Eirth:

Absolutely.

Kendra Parker:

And one of the things we talk about with the open-mindedness is the truth-seeking, not truth-telling. We use that a lot in leading quality conversations. But I think it's something that, as you said, when you become a leader, you have that positional power that you don't even realize sometimes.

Viviane Robinson:

Yeah.

Kendra Parker:

And so that's the creating the trust environment as well where people know that they can speak up.

Viviane Robinson:

Well, I don't mind, Kendra, people telling the truth as long as they've tested the validity of their ideas to see whether they are close to the truth. It's the truth claiming.

Kendra Parker:

Truth claiming, yes.

Viviane Robinson:

It's the truth-claiming that I have a problem with in the sense of taking for granted, that here's an example, a very influential leadership coach in one of the schools I'm working in, declared that there was too many teachers in the school teaching from the front of the class and that they should change to more small group teaching. So this is a familiar story, isn't it?

Kendra Parker:

Indeed. Yes, very.

Viviane Robinson:

And that's a classic example of the sort of assumption that that's claiming the truth of my idea about it's wrong to have sitting kids sitting in rows and the teacher talking to them. That must be right. It's so true. Instead of asking questions like, "Well, what are the kids learning? How do the kids experience a teacher being upfront and explaining stuff?" What does the research say about conceptual explanations from a teacher? What are the challenges of getting good learning in small group situations? Why is this teacher teaching from the front and not in a small group situation? That's what truth-seeking and open-mindedness would lead that coach to do as opposed to truth-claiming.

Kendra Parker:

Yeah. That's a great example and, as you said, one, I'm sure we're all quite familiar with. We're just about coming to the end of our time, but we talked about the capability of using knowledge to solve complex problems of teaching and learning and building trust. What do you think at the moment is the most complex problem school leaders are dealing with?

Viviane Robinson:

I would say the most complex problem they're dealing with is their own and their teacher's workload. That's the most complex problem because that problem is preventing the resolution of another very complex problem, which is the persistent gap between all sorts of achievement and probably wellbeing outcomes, and certainly attendance, engagement, and achievement.

The disparities between social groups is a huge problem and an incredibly challenging problem. And one of the things that I think is stopping us solving that problem is, first of all, we're not being systematic and persistent enough and bringing enough knowledge to bear to solve it. But that, in turn, is caused by the enormous number of duties and responsibilities that have been loaded into the role of school leaders and teachers that are preventing them, dedicating the time and effort and cognitive space required to address them.

Kendra Parker:

Wow. Thanks, Viviane. Simone. I don't think we could disagree with that as the biggest problem challenge facing our school leaders today.

Simone Eirth:

I definitely don't think we can disagree with that, Kendra. I'm wondering what the answer is though.

Kendra Parker:

I think that's a whole another podcast-

Viviane Robinson:

It is actually.

Kendra Parker:

... for another time.

Viviane Robinson:

In the last three months, I've done a lot of thinking about that and writing and starting to see the connections between those two big problems. Yeah.

Simone Eirth:

Can I ask what your initial thoughts are, Viviane?

Viviane Robinson:

Well, I've just written a report for Western Australian Department of Education about it. It's confidential. It went to the director general yesterday.

Simone Eirth:

Definitely stay tuned.

Kendra Parker:

We'll look forward to hearing more of your thoughts.

Viviane Robinson:

I can say this apart from the report, but I think we have a real problem of role creep and role expansion for both schools and teachers. And I think we have just about gone as far as we can with the industrial relations, that employment issues around pay and time off and duties other than teaching and things like that. But this is connected to a recruitment and retention problem, and that is connected hugely to work intensification.

Simone Eirth:

Okay. I won't ask another question, Kendra.

Kendra Parker:

No. It's just such a topic at the moment.

Simone Eirth:

That is.

Kendra Parker:

As Viviane pointed out, it's the biggest challenge that's facing us all, that recruitment and retention of teachers, and part of the reason that the Academy is doing all of this work around leadership excellence and developing it across the system and helping with that, developing the pipeline, so we've got excellent leaders coming up through our system.

Viviane Robinson:

And we're explicit about what it requires, and it's not an overcrowded curriculum, but it is an intense curriculum, or I hope we can get there with that. And I think we will.

Kendra Parker:

Yeah. I think so too.

Viviane Robinson:

So that we actually do in skill people to become excellent, which is after all the mission of the academy.

Kendra Parker:

Thanks, Viviane. That's a lovely way to wrap it up. We started today talking about why leadership matters, but we also have another saying here that says, "Investing in leadership matters." And I think that's what the Academy is doing with the work with Viviane around the framework. And if people listening come to the Academy to do one of our programs, you will see that they're really grounded in that science of teaching and learning that Viviane talked about and also aligned to our Leadership Excellence Framework.

So I hope everyone's enjoyed listening to our podcast episode today. Don't forget, if you want to develop your leadership excellence, you can head to the Academy website and enroll in one of our leadership programs, or if you want to learn more about growing leadership excellence in your school, then browse our website. And there's lots of resources available that you can use individually or in teams. Thank you for joining us.

Simone Eirth:

Thanks so much, Kendra and Viviane.

Viviane Robinson:

Yeah. It's been a pleasure, Kendra and Simone.

Kendra Parker:

The pleasure is all us. Thanks, Viviane.

Viviane Robinson:

Thank you.

Simone Eirth:

Absolutely. Thanks, Viviane.

Outro:

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