Leadership excellence - Executive Class Principal experiences, challenges and positive impact

Transcript

Introduction:

You’re listening to the Victorian Academy of Teaching and Leadership podcast where we showcase conversations with some of the world’s biggest thought leaders in education. We also bring you the thoughts and reflections of teachers and school leaders from across Victoria.

Justine Smyth:

Welcome everyone. My name is Justine Smyth and I'm principal-in-residence here at the Victorian Academy of Teaching and Leadership, but my substantive role is an executive-based principal in regional Victoria.

Today we are joining you from 41 St Andrews Place in the building on Wurundjeri people's land of the Kulin Nation. This episode is perfect for all Victorian school principals, assistant principals and other leaders, and anyone who has a passion about educational leadership. In this episode, we're joined by two very special guests who are executive class principals or ECPs for short. Gail Hardman, executive principal with School Workforce Supply Initiative, Goulburn and Oven Murray area with North East Victoria, and Prue Pisani, differentiated support for School Improvement Initiative from the North West region. Today we'll be discussing how executive class principals are creating change, overcoming challenges, and connecting with school communities.

I'm sure Prue and Gail that everyone knows what a principal does in their role within schools, but I'm not sure if our broader audience really is familiar with the role of an executive class principal. So I'm wondering if you could tell me a little bit about what your role is and what you do. I'll start with you, Gail.

Gail Hardman:

Thank you very much, Justine. Look, there are many similarities. Obviously, principals have a lot of technical work. There's goal setting, managing people in the day-to-day routines of governing a school. However, the differences really evolve around... Initially a decision is made at a regional level in regard to which schools require some additional assistance and support. And it is around the complexity of the school or the role and they obviously consider challenges within the school. And if there are complexities, I know personally that's how the school where I was working was selected.

Probably one thing that also stands out to me as something that exec principals have to deal with is uncertainty and vulnerability in our change processes. So we put there basically to ensure that there's positive change and improve the system and learning outcomes for students. And that can be very sensitive work and there's lots of heightened feelings of vulnerability and I suppose there's increased perceptions from the people that you're working with that there's risks and that they may be ignored and not heard. And if that happens, it can really derail our school improvement process. So it's really about supporting change and it's also around high levels of strategic thinking and really working together with a strong leadership team.

So many schools, I suppose, are challenged to have the right people or they've been doing the same thing for many, many years and nothing has really improved in their student learning outcomes. So it's high levels of our leadership practices that we do as executive class principles. At times that can be a challenge on a personal level too, but change management I think is probably the factor that is very different to what we would classify as a principal class role in most schools.

Justine Smyth:

Yeah. And with really complex work by the sounds of it.

Gail Hardman:

Yes.

Justine Smyth:

With a lot of leading change and a school and a community through that change.

Gail Hardman:

I think also another thing to point out is that executive class principals, they're quite unique roles, so it depends on the context of every school and it's really hard to find a like school. And I think that's something that people need to be aware of. And for those, say assistant principals or other principals who are out there listening, aspire to something that is a real challenge. It might be a personal challenge, but if you really enjoy working with a lot of people and stakeholders, it is a very enjoyable role. Within all the work we do every day, you do get a lot of satisfaction out of helping those students and their families in the community that you serve. So I'd really recommend it to anyone who's considering looking at those roles as they come up.

Justine Smyth:

Thanks, Gail. Prue, your role's slightly different as an exec prin as you are not based in a school. You work with a cluster of schools or a group of schools. Could you share with us your work?

Prue Pisani:

Yes. Mine's a little bit different in that I work with the team, myself and two leading teachers, leadership partners. And we work intensively with two to three schools at any one time over a two-year period. And so what we do is very similarly, we go in and we work with the principal and the leadership team really around developing their skills and capability in strategic thinking and leadership and change management, all of those things that Gail did mention, but it's very differentiated. That's the DSSI in that no two schools are the same. The context really matters. We work with them with the AIP goals that they've worked on with their seal. But yeah, really bringing that change management aspect for it is really important. And those leadership skills from the reflection that the principal might do and also someone to bounce off because being a principal can be quite a lonely experience sometimes being in that space, but someone to bounce off that's there every week. And we are there every week to help them there.

It's similar in our experience as executive principles, is having those conversations to be able to bounce off and generate new and innovative ideas is really important in that role as well. I'm lucky I have a team to do it with and they're just high quality, people that I work with, so that's been really, really helpful as well. So day-to-day, that's what we do. We also do some regional work. So we've been working on some professional learning developing them for all the school improvement workforce, so SAMS, et cetera. Some of the other regional workforce groups we've been helping them as well and working with them.

Justine Smyth:

Fantastic. It's really interesting to hear your journey and your stories. Myself being an executive class principal, each of us have a unique story to talk about unique journey. And as you said, Gail, each school is different. We don't all do the same thing, but we do have complex work with challenges. I know Gail, like I did, we had to close some schools and merge some schools and make them one and set up a whole new establishment, which is very complex work. And I know the work that, Gail, you do with schools is really complex, but I think the thing that unites exec principals is the partnership and the stakeholder work that we have to do. It's bigger than just ourselves and it's much more complex and it's why we are given the title and the role to work. So it's really interesting to hear your stories, but they also resonate really clearly with me and the work that I've done over the last seven years. So thank you for sharing that with me.

One of the things I wanted to touch on, and I think Gail and Prue, you both brought this up, it was the complex work that you do. It really is complex strategic work when we are placed in a school to work as with a school or ourself as an executive principal. And I just wanted to have a little chat about that with you. At the academy, we have a leadership excellence framework. One of the core capabilities in that is about problem solving and complex problem solving. So I wanted to talk to you today about some of the biggest challenges or most complex challenges you've had in the roles that you currently undertake and how you've overcome them through leadership and vision building. So I might start with you this time, Prue, if you could share something with us.

Prue Pisani:

I think one of the interesting things with the work that we do is we're invited by schools to join with them. There's a process where they express interest through their [inaudible 00:08:06]. And at the start it's often fantastic and there's extra people on board, but part of our work is to uncover what's happening culturally within the school. Sometimes when we've been in a place or when we've all worked in a place for some time, sometimes we can develop those blind spots or biases because we know it just so well. And so then people come in and they're sort of like, "Oh, why do you do that?" And so that can sometimes breed a bit of complexity in that, in the relationships that we have. I think the really important thing we've discovered is coming together around that partnering and understanding that we're coming together to partner to create this excellent learning to improve those outcomes for students.

But around excellent teaching and learning is absolutely critical. The transparency that you need around the communication, even coming together to assume positive intention, we're all here for that. And that kid with that big smile and has achieved what they needed to achieve has helped us out with that.

I think the other thing we've found around some of those complexity things is having tools and a shared language that we can use. So we use some of the Simon Breakspear tools such as say an Impact Canvas, and that's really helped us bring some clarity to the complexity, which sounds a bit difficult, but it helps us come around what is the shared vision for the change that we're expecting. And that's one of the most powerful tools that we use often in schools so that we have that shared language. What's the end game we're aiming for here? Many different ways to get there. We're going to look at the best possible evidence-based ways, but let's all work towards that one thing around that.

Justine Smyth:

It is that real shared ownership and shared direction and breaking down the steps of the strategic direction you're going to take. And I can hear the way you've described that Prue and the work that you obviously do within your schools to help them achieve that. It's making those complex problems more manageable from what you say.

Gail, would you like to talk to us about your school? You obviously have spent the last seven years or so working in a school and doing this complex work. Would you like to share some of that journey with us?

Gail Hardman:

Following on from what Prue has said, I'm a very big process person and you will find in schools that have complexity or challenges that may occur because of things outside your control, you'll find that the systems and processes may be lacking. So it's around building... I suppose my challenges were around building trust relationships first, but also having a very clear vision and direction. So people need to trust that you know what you are on about and it's also some people, so that in my particular example, that was a merger of four school. So there are lots of cultures, I call it a collision of cultures, and I have to be very mindful and value everyone's contribution, but we did have people who were quite traumatized and still really missing what they had. So change can be really difficult. For a lot of people, it can be very confronting. Some people think it's fantastic and go with you.

So around those complexities is also, a couple of things that were close to me, apart from having establishing processes was also having understanding change management. And a lot of people talk about changing people's hearts and minds. Well, where I come from it's you really need to change behaviors first because people can't comment on how they feel if they haven't actually had a try at changing their own behavior, but doing that in a very supportive way. And for me that was one of my major foci.

Also, you need to have a deep understanding of the effective methods of the preconditions for successful schools. So I leaned in really hard with the Bar Marshall and Kimba in their evidence-based research around that. So the very first thing I did to help with my complexities there was to establish a really strong distributive leadership, have that leadership that's shared, you need a calm and orderly environment. Learning won't occur until everyone's settled and safe. That's a very difficult thing to do and it takes time. But if you persevere and you have a very, very clear message, someone said to me, you have to repeat things five times for people to even realize that you've said something. And in a number of ways, that's what we did. And focusing really on what matters most and giving the teachers back the thoughts that they do have efficacy, they do believe in their own work. They do believe that every student can learn. So I suppose I really have a mantra around every child can learn given the right opportunity.

And you need to persevere. And if you have a couple of things that you really hang on too hard but are evidence-based, you'll find many people will come along but you need to be very clear. And that clarity is so important because you will be asked the same thing many, many times in many different ways and you cannot really go off course. Your message has to be consistent. So it's nearly 10 years I suppose since we started that. And one thing that I really... In moving into a different role at the moment was stepping away knowing that it wasn't about me, that everything was in place and the leaders actually talking about the language about leadership that's shared and what are we focusing on, what matters most. So when you hear your mantra back, you know that you've impacted a little bit, which is great for the students and their final outcomes in senior years.

Justine Smyth:

Thank you. I love hearing your stories and they resonate so deeply with me as well. I obviously use Victor Zabar's work as well to set up the school that I established and the audience learning environment, the consistent messages, all those things are so key to strategic leadership and setting up direction for success within schools. And I think Gail, we will share that when we speak the things that we do within the schools that we work in and the communities that we work in.

I wanted to touch on just a little bit here about some of the barriers. And Prue, I'm going to direct this one to you. Can you share some examples of breaking barriers and about changing the narrative in the schools that you've worked with? A lot of the schools that you work with will have a negative narrative and there will be staff and children that have had not such a great narrative through the journey. So how have you gone in? What did you do and what barriers did you find in creating that positive narrative for the school and community?

Prue Pisani:

Yeah, all the school contexts are very, very different. I think one of the first things that we do when we come into a school as a team is really try and get a deep understanding of what's been happening in the school culturally and historically. And it can be simple things like just taking the walk around the school and having a look at say the staff room or the shared areas and what they're looking like. Because while everyone says, "Well, that's just the room and that's where the things are kept," what we can start to see is these are indicators as to what's actually happening in the school. So is it neat and tidy? Or some people have taken over particular areas that might not have been theirs, so to speak. So we can see a lot from the culture. We can also start to understand a little bit around the decision-making that's happening.

And also on that messaging point, really interesting, yes, you do need to say that message a few times, but when we see things that have been up on the window, we're like, "Oh, that's a really interesting display." And then we are there a term later and the display hasn't changed, and it's probably maybe something that like the thing of the week, but it's still the thing of the week 10 weeks later, we can start to say, "Okay, well how much attention is being paid?" It's a small detail that we've noticed. But the people pick up on that. The staff, the students, people pick up on those small details.

So I think one of the barriers is around changing or considering what improvement actually looks like in a school. As educators, we are very busy, we do lots of activities, we're action-orientated people, so that's really good to think about and stop and just shift our focus, getting some clarity on what we're after and making sure that the work that we are doing actually has impact and sustainability is the second part of that. That's a barrier because it's shifting people's behaviors and visions of what leadership should be like I think. So we can say that one.

And also then empowering the teachers to make some of the decisions, but those strong foundations being in place in order for that to happen in a really streamlined, cohesive way across the school so that everybody is getting into that and understanding that.

Justine Smyth:

I think Gail, you touched on that as well, the processes and having the real clear direction and structures to ensure that the success goes through the school. So I think that's key to both of the things that you've talked about here and key to your role as executive principals. Gail, I just wanted to, if you could share one of your most memorable stories that have resulted in a really positive outcome for your school community.

Gail Hardman:

Yeah, I'd love to. Look, there's many, and I really had to think about this one, but I'll do one that happened very early in my journey. The school that I led had the three sectors, primary, secondary and inclusive education, our special education school. So a lot happening, a lot of that cultural understanding, getting to know each other. And as a primary teacher, I went through the first year where I was responsible for supporting the VCE, went through the [inaudible 00:17:25] and I was looking at the students observing and it was about half an hour and they all walked out and the teachers, "Oh, that's great, they've stayed half an hour" and I'm thinking it said it's a three-hour exam. Same with the VCA English exam. So I started to ask more questions thinking, well to me that didn't look right and how on earth can they achieve their best if they're walking out during exam time?

So we did some more research, went to other places and I found that the staff had a very big misconception around the expectations that need to be implemented around those two assessments. So we did a lot of professional learning because I'm not secondary trained. I had to learn with the staff. So learning beside the staff. There, we actually had to as again change our behaviors and our own understandings. And so the next year it was, you don't leave and sort of high expectations again, which is part of a precondition of a successful school. The students and the staff worked very hard together. We changed basically our messaging around that also with the parents as well. Now the students stay for entire assessment periods and the invigilators are amazing. They give great feedback because they were also the ones impacted by students walking out halfway through an exam.

I then decided to get even I suppose go up a notch, the staff are ready for more professional learning. So each year, and it still continues, we have Melbourne Uni come up and they actually sit with the teachers and go through every student's results and ask the teachers the hard questions. "Question 32, Gail, your students didn't understand that. How can we do that better next year?" And they also speak with the students. So physically rebadging and moving where the VCE students sit and learn. So there were less distractions, there were study areas, staff available all the time. And from that, we had increased mean study schools that still continues to improve, which is wonderful. We were sort of known as a residual educator. That's now changing with families moving to our school from year 10 upward. Oh, not our school, I'm not there anymore, but the school, it's very dear to me.

So there's lots of positive communication now with our community. It is an educational leader, our school in the area. And we have more students completing this final years of study. So less destination unknown and a lot more about, I'm big around aspiration and giving students every opportunity. So that is a memorable story because the outcome is that the students now coming through know that you have to work hard and there is a great outcome if you finish school. So that was something that I thought, "My gosh, I've changed a whole cultural understanding of a school" and it was great to see really positive outcomes.

Justine Smyth:

Yeah. [inaudible 00:20:13].

Gail Hardman:

And it's still continuing.

Justine Smyth:

I'm going to share with the audience, because they can't see your face, the delight in you talking about the changes in the students. Our job as principals, whether it's executive or principals, is to have better outcomes for kids and the students that we lead and their families. So to sit here and listen to you talk about that story, but most importantly to see the expression on your face and how proud you are makes the job worthwhile. Those small moments are what creates change. And we know that when we create change, it's long and it can be hard. And the small things that we hang onto to that we see with the growth of our students are the key things to helping us move forward. So thank you for sharing that story.

Gail Hardman:

Thank you. And Gail, for talking about the barriers and the things that you need to overcome. Because I think when we talk about change and growth in schools, there are so many common pieces to those puzzles that we work on that it's not new things. And I hope that we are talking now that some of this is going to resonate with our listeners and that they can put some of these things in place to support their change journey and the growth within their school. One of the things you both talked about really strongly that's come through is perseverance and the perseverance that's needed to create change within a school. And often leaders are faced with resistance. How do you communicate your shared vision and inspire people to be part of your journey and keep up your own personal momentum and perseverance when the going gets tough? Prue, would you like to share with us your journey when you're working with a school?

Prue Pisani:

Yes. I think for our role or my role within schools, it's actually about creating a shared vision. Again, articulating that shared vision, but considering who will be impacted by this outcome and making sure that they've got a say in what it might look like, they can see themselves in that picture I think is really, really important there. And often, those visions are quite abstract, so how do we make them a little bit more concrete? In many schools we hear about lifelong learners, but what does a lifelong learner look like for you? So I think that's important.

And I think for me also, a narrative. We're going on a journey together. It's equivalent of we're heading up to Brisbane. We can go to Brisbane from Melbourne in a variety of ways, but what is the narrative? What's the path we're going to take to get there? I think Gail mentioned having that multiple exposures to that narrative so that everybody's getting the message through pictures, through verbal ways, through... You name it. People come up with very creative ways to express that narrative as we go along. And I think the other bit is having those small wins obviously along the way. But again, some really good measurement criteria I think is really key for me. We tend to rely on our big data sources such as net plan or whatever, but what are the small little things that we can see. What's happening in the classrooms?

And again, from that leadership perspective, what are the changes we can see in our teachers as well about their wellbeing, about how they're showing up to school in their work? What changes are we seeing in their teaching practice? All of those for me are small impact measures towards that. And I think the other thing that I can often see around that perseverance is you see leaders becoming courageous. I think that's absolutely key in this perseverance piece because we can aspire something. And then if we're courageous, then we can keep moving on with that. Whereas that courage can be hard at times and you have to have someone to talk to, don't you, to really think it through.

Justine Smyth:

Courage is one of the biggest pieces when working with change, and I think that interpersonal courage is a huge part of your role as an exec prin as well as a perseverance. Gail, did you want to share some of your journey of perseverance?

Gail Hardman:

Yes. I think it's a really easy segue on from what Prue has said. I would say exactly the same thing. It's really around being a lead learner and learning with your leaders because it's about those building relationships. And if you're not going to persevere and do the hard yards and go, "Oh gosh, that goal was probably not the one we should be on because you've actually experienced it with them." I also set up, I suppose, weekly check-ins with all leaders and any staff member at all. But again, it's that strategic thinking that really making sure that everything's set out. It's very visual. And that allows people as well to say honest feedback once you've built that relationship.

I think we really need to look at that AIP goal. I don't think it's being implemented as it should, or we've ticked that off, "What's our next piece of work?" Because as a leader, no matter a leader even in a classroom, you can't know everything and you can't understand and feel what other people are feeling at the time. So you have to be quite perceptive and use that social and emotionally intelligence. And at times, you have to persevere because sometimes you think, "Well, I didn't achieve anything today," but three days later you've got a lot to celebrate.

So apart from working with leaders, it's really important to persevere with your own learning. And I found being a principal can be quite isolating. I think you said that before. We're queerly fortunate to have about 40 executive class principals across the state now, and we have opportunities to meet together. I know that my journey would look a lot different if I didn't have my network of colleagues who have very similar experiences in general to complexity and perseverance. So I think it's around making sure that you persevere with your own output, but you also persevere with how everyone is. It's like a motor car, isn't it? Sometimes you're running on four cylinders. And when I'm running really well, the person next to me may feel unwell. So being very aware and using your mindfulness and just understanding the staff, isn't it? It's a very human-based employment opportunity that we have ahead of us.

Justine Smyth:

I think when you've both spoken to me today here, you've really talked about the importance of your human leadership and the importance of human leadership in working within schools. And I love that you talk about our ECP group. I've been part of it too now for eight years, Gail. And for me, it's a really important group. We come together and we learn, we try things out. We exposed to new research and understandings. I know a lot of the work that Simon Breakspear did with us, I implemented across my school and used it to set up for me to leave to ensure that I had a distributive leadership that was going to be more successful past my journey at the school. So I love that you touched on that, and I think it's a really key part of the work that we do. And I know that it also caters for our other DSSI staff and that they really try to support you in the work that you do in schools as well.

One of the things that you've both talked about that I love listening to you speak on, is the importance of developing leaders within the settings that you work in and really building the succession plan of a school beyond the exec prin, beyond the DSSI print, working within the school, ensuring that we have that real middle leadership ready to come up through the ranks. So I just wanted to talk to both of you about how you do that. What's your role, how you set it up to be successful? Because the real human part of your leadership. I might start with you, Gail.

Gail Hardman:

Yeah, I've probably touched on it a little bit in the last response. It's something that you really have to demystify leadership within your school. Some people think, "Oh, no, it's too difficult." Or they talk about the leaders or leadership, they talk about this leadership and you think it's interesting. It's like we're on a different planet. So if you're demystified, if you give people lots of opportunity to lead, and again, it's that being really on the ground purposefully embedded within the activities, I think, I know principles are very good at picking up on people's strengths. It's a very strength-based activity. You can actually then work on the strengths of the person and bring them into the fold.

So things that I would do is I built a leadership team, a distributed leadership team, and there was, I think, two of us running the show, which was impossible. I just can't do it by yourself. And then we would invite certain people in who had a little bit of an inkling and they would find that it wasn't sort of a secret meeting behind doors that it was quite an interesting conversation. Everyone had a voice and there were agendas and things. So we had that processes in and it went out to everyone.

So looking out for people who have great strength, even though they may not know. And I don't know about you Prue, but most of my promotions have been because people have actually tapped me on the shoulder and I haven't even considered that I would even go for something. You think, "Oh, me? Really?" So having that little sort of... The feel is out there for what's on the ground and then supporting with professional learning. So every year we were looking doing the [inaudible 00:29:00] we did leadership on the line and people would present their chapters. And having the ability for people to ask questions, they may not agree with, behaviors before hearts and minds, we'd have lots of conversations around that.

So it's about building the capacity of people, encouraging them to enroll in leadership courses and go out. You really need to go outside and expand your mind. You can't learn from within all the time. I know we've all had our own conversations around how long should we stay in a place because you really need to move on. It's not just about you. And that is the succession plan building. I also have been very fortunate because with the three sectors, people who may be in inclusive education have actually ended up in doing amazing things in different sectors or combining the three. So it's just an untapped world out there, but it is your job. I think it's really important to leave that succession plan, because personally it's a little bit of an ego thing here that you know can step out and you've actually prepared the future and the students have got amazing leaders without you there. So I love doing that. That's really part of my passion of being a leader.

Justine Smyth:

And you can see that coming across, sitting here from you, Gail. Leadership, it's about what you do for others, isn't it? It's a service really. And it's a privilege to lead a school and to lead others. Gail, your journey's a little bit different because you work with different schools. Prue, Gail's doing it from the inside and she's working with a team inside. It's a little bit more complex to build it from the outside. How do you go about building the leaders within the school?

 

Prue Pisani:

Yeah, so again, building capabilities is really interesting because there's so many different areas as we look at leadership frameworks. Sometimes, where do you start? What that looks like can be different. And going in and understanding the context is again really, really important for us. And then also coming into that partnership space is seeking out what they would like to develop themselves and where they want to go from that. I think also promoting that reflection within that. As leaders, we need to be reflecting on our own practice and what we are bringing to the situation. And so, that's one of the areas of capability that we do like to work on as well with ours.

The sustainability piece is quite interesting. So we spend two years, that's what we have in a school at the sort of most. But a lot of the processes and practices we do actually gradual release of responsibility type approach where we will work with the leaders and do it, either show them how to do it the first time. Then some of the work, we'll then give them a go. So it's just like we do with any piece of learning. We do almost a worked example sometimes or show them how other schools have done it because let's face it, we all like an example, don't we? How someone else did it down the road. And I think leadership can be similar in that as well.

I think also thinking about what people's motivations are for building their capability. So some people, I'm a mastery person, I like to know how to do things well. That's what really motivates me. But for other people, it's having that sense of belonging to their school and how can they build their leadership team so that everybody feels empowered and has a sense of belonging. I think the other bit around it is reflecting on what the challenges are. So as we build our capabilities, while it might be strength-based, it's all not going to go to plan. And that's expected because these are complex situations we're working in. No one has a quick answer, otherwise it'll be a technical problem and much easier to fix. But we're going to have challenges, we're going to have setbacks. How do we bounce back from that at that point in time? And again, as you said, reach out to your networks and your colleagues and how do we pick ourselves up and dust ourselves off.

Justine Smyth:

Learn from the experiences.

Prue Pisani:

Learn from the experiences. Exactly.

Justine Smyth:

I love that I sit here listening to both of you. You are lifelong learners, and you can hear it in the conversations that we're having. You believe in the journey of yourself as well as the journey of others. And I think what's beautiful about being part of the executive class group is you get to build your skills through the journey as well. And I know that we spoke before this podcast about the wonderful opportunity we've all had to develop and grow through the course with the ECPs at the academy. So I hope anyone out there is listening that hasn't been part of it, join. Come and join the network. You have got a wealth of experience of people here to support you. None of us are superhuman and we're not super beings. We are principals and we're tasked with a complex job, and I think that today, the insights that you've shared and the inspiring conversation.

I just want to thank you so much for sharing your journey today. Both of you, you've got very different journeys, but both work as executive class principals and both work to improve outcomes for students and work at a system level to create change for leaders, teachers, and students and communities. It's an amazing job. I just wanted to say thank you for sharing your expertise, your knowledge. And I hope that anyone listening here today has really learned from the experience and your wisdom of the things that you've shared with us, and that students are really lucky to have you working for them. So thank you for your time today. I really appreciate it. You have been inspiring.

Prue Pisani:

Thank you.

Gail Hardman:

Thank you very much.

Outro:

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